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Cask strength whisky - What exactly is cask strength?
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albo
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:04 pm    Post subject: Cask strength whisky - What exactly is cask strength? Reply with quote

While reading the internet this lunchtime (on my own time boss if your reading), I happened upon an article which discussed cask strength whisky and what new make spirit was diluted down to before maturation. Apparently this is 63.5% abv as an industry standard, who knew? Not me I know that much.

Upon reading that, I did some more digging and found there seems to be no formal reason for this, the best educated guess I can find is that whisky matures faster at a lower abv, the optimum being 60% but the risk of it loosing too much alcohol during maturation and coming out lower than 40% is too high, so they settled on 63.5%.

This leaves me and others I have spoken to (hello bifter) in a quandary about a few things. Assuming the above is correct (if not then this thread is dead before it even started), then, I come to the conclusion that each barrel must loose alcohol at an undetermined and non constant rate, as if it were a constant all, say 10 year old, cask strength whisky would be the same ABV after 10 years. I'm guessing that climate, differences in wood, where it is stored in the warehouse etc all affect this?

That said, if the comment about 60% running too high a risk of loosing too much alcohol and thus going below the 40% abv mark is true, how is it we see 20+ year old bottles of cask strength whisky up at over 60%abv? You'd have thought that they would have lost more than 3.5% abv over a 20 year period, no?

The only exception from this I can find is Bruichladdich, who by all account fill the barrels at the same level that comes out of the stills, as they 'can't afford to store water'.

So I guess I'm asking if anyone knows anything more about this, there are plenty of you here who are either well connected in the industry of have been about it for longer than I and I was wondering if you could shed any light on this?

Thoughts?
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Alastair
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My understanding is that it is industry standard to fill casks at 63.5%, but I don't think it comes out the still a great deal higher than this, obviously it will vary from one distillery to another but I recall a figure of around 70% or low seventies for double distilled spirit.

The alcohol level is very much dependent on the quality of wood and storage conditions and obviously the time in the cask..

The bottle which amazed me just this past week is the Glenlivet 70 Year Old from G&M, 45.9% abv after 70 years in the cask.

My understanding is that CASK STRENGTH is the strength it comes out the cask but what I have always wondered is do some whisky companies round off the strength of the whisky yet still state it is cask strength. For example the excellent 1st travel retail bottling Old Pulteney WK499 Isabella Fortuna was bottled at a cask strength of 52% abv exactly, now this wasnt a single cask bottling so whats the chance of a number of casks vatted together being exactly 52%. Do they sometimes round off the abv with a drop of water if so then technically it isn't cask strength.
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Alexppp
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alastair wrote:
what I have always wondered is do some whisky companies round off the strength of the whisky yet still state it is cask strength. For example the excellent 1st travel retail bottling Old Pulteney WK499 Isabella Fortuna was bottled at a cask strength of 52% abv exactly, now this wasnt a single cask bottling so whats the chance of a number of casks vatted together being exactly 52%. Do they sometimes round off the abv with a drop of water if so then technically it isn't cask strength.


I doubt they round off, after all the chance of a round number like 52% is exactly the same as any decimal point, and I would guess the majority of cases aren't round numbers. (with exceptions like Talisker 57 North, which isn't really cask strength anyway)
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Keith
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alexppp wrote:
Alastair wrote:
what I have always wondered is do some whisky companies round off the strength of the whisky yet still state it is cask strength. For example the excellent 1st travel retail bottling Old Pulteney WK499 Isabella Fortuna was bottled at a cask strength of 52% abv exactly, now this wasnt a single cask bottling so whats the chance of a number of casks vatted together being exactly 52%. Do they sometimes round off the abv with a drop of water if so then technically it isn't cask strength.


I doubt they round off, after all the chance of a round number like 52% is exactly the same as any decimal point, and I would guess the majority of cases aren't round numbers. (with exceptions like Talisker 57 North, which isn't really cask strength anyway)
The 1st edition of Old Pulteney WK499 was a release of 18000 at 52% so i would guess it was a vatting of at least 40 casks. Therefore i would guess Old Pulteneys master blender would have selected casks delibrately for the vatting to come out at 52%. He would have stopped adding to the vatting when he acheived the flavour profile he wanted and a nice round number for the abv. He wouldnt have added water to round off the figure.

I thought the Talisker 57 North was cask strength, the Talisker master blender will do the same as i said above, he will keep adding to each batch of the vatting until he achieves 57% abv
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Alastair
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheers Keith, that makes sense, i hadnt thought about it like that.
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Genuine Risk
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is off the top of my head but I think the tolerance for whisky ABV is 1.5%. I.e. What it says on the label could be 1.5% either way.
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Gregor
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

onlyhalfmad wrote:
This is off the top of my head but I think the tolerance for whisky ABV is 1.5%. I.e. What it says on the label could be 1.5% either way.
I would have thought it would have been a precise measurement given todays modern measurement equipment, i have never heard mention of any tolerance.
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Alexppp
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keith wrote:

I thought the Talisker 57 North was cask strength, the Talisker master blender will do the same as i said above, he will keep adding to each batch of the vatting until he achieves 57% abv


The reason I mentioned the Talisker is because it says "special strength" on the box, as opposed to "cask strength".
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alexppp wrote:
Keith wrote:

I thought the Talisker 57 North was cask strength, the Talisker master blender will do the same as i said above, he will keep adding to each batch of the vatting until he achieves 57% abv


The reason I mentioned the Talisker is because it says "special strength" on the box, as opposed to "cask strength".
I also thought the Talisker 57 North was bottled at cask strength, just had a look over at TWE and there description says it is cask strength.

Gregor wrote:
onlyhalfmad wrote:
This is off the top of my head but I think the tolerance for whisky ABV is 1.5%. I.e. What it says on the label could be 1.5% either way.
I would have thought it would have been a precise measurement given todays modern measurement equipment, i have never heard mention of any tolerance.
I am certain it will be a precise measurement but i may be wrong, i often am, just ask Mrs Mac Laughing
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Genuine Risk
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gregor wrote:
onlyhalfmad wrote:
This is off the top of my head but I think the tolerance for whisky ABV is 1.5%. I.e. What it says on the label could be 1.5% either way.
I would have thought it would have been a precise measurement given todays modern measurement equipment, i have never heard mention of any tolerance.


I'm sure they could be but thanks to EU law they don't have to be, if I have time I will look later. Here is a EWB Biill Lumsden interview question

Ardbeg Galileo is bottled at 49% ABV - has it been watered down to this or is this natural cask strength? If it has been watered down, why not to a "typical' bottling strength of 40, 43 or even 46% ABV?

Two reasons for this. One, we liked this strength, it was an unusual strength to bottle at and so fits in with the Ardbeg brand positioning. In practical terms, it was vatted at 50 point something and you always have to build in a safety factor for the labelling so we decided to take it down a wee bit. Say it was 50.6% ABV, which I think it was, if we had printed that on the label, by the time we had taken it from the vat and bottled it, the strength would have dropped and so we had to be careful with it.
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Genuine Risk
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And to blow your mind you might not even be getting the full 700ml or 750ml in your bottle, not saying it happens in whisky but a lot of companys use this law on tolerance to make lots of extra cash.
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albo
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What a depressing read that was this morning, I've often seen some bottles who's fill level was slightly different. Now I know why Sad

As for the origional debate, it's been an interested read and I thank everyone for their input.
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Genuine Risk
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

albo wrote:
What a depressing read that was this morning, I've often seen some bottles who's fill level was slightly different. Now I know why Sad

As for the origional debate, it's been an interested read and I thank everyone for their input.


Its about +/-2cl for a bottle (i think) Confused
Dont fall asleep but................


ACT

Commission Directive 87/250/EEC of 15 April 1987 on the indication of alcoholic strength by volume in the labelling of alcoholic beverages for sale to the ultimate consumer.


SUMMARY

This Directive lays down specific provisions for the labelling of alcoholic beverages for sale to the ultimate consumer. These specific provisions supplement the general rules on the labelling and presentation of foodstuffs.

The labelling of alcoholic beverages containing more than 1.2 % by volume of alcohol must indicate the alcoholic strength by volume, i.e. the figure corresponding to the alcoholic strength followed by the symbol "% vol.'. The figure shall be given to not more than one decimal place. In certain cases, the figure shall be preceded by the word "alcohol' or the abbreviation "alc.'.

Alcoholic strength shall be determined at 20 °C.

This Directive shall apply to beverages with an alcoholic strength by volume exceeding 1.2 %, other than grape must in fermentation of with fermentation arrested otherwise than by the addition of alcohol (classified under heading 22.04 of the Common Customs Tariff), and wine of fresh grapes and grape must with fermentation arrested by the addition of alcohol (classified under heading 22.05 of the Common Customs Tariff).

The tolerances allowed in respect of the indication of the alcoholic strength by volume are:
0.3 % for beverages not mentioned below;
0.5 % vol. for beers having an alcoholic strength not exceeding 5.5 % vol. and beverages made from grapes classified under subheading 22.07 B II of the Common Customs Tariff;
1 % vol. for beers having an alcoholic strength exceeding 5.5 % vol. and beverages made from grapes classified under subheading 22.07 B I of the Common Customs Tariff, ciders, perries and other similar fermented beverages produced from fruits other than grapes, and beverages based on fermented honey;
1.5 % vol. for beverages containing macerated fruit or parts of plants.

Trade in beverages that do not comply with this Directive but were labelled before 1 May 1989 is permitted until stocks are exhausted.


Not 100%( Laughing ) sure where whisky falls but just to show it excists.
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albo
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks very much for that, it's certainly something I didn't know.

It makes me wonder though when it comes to cask strength whisky, why they put the decimal point at all in that case, assuming it's the 1% allowance, then why not round it up / down to make lables easier to print etc? Or is it to give the consumer something that sounds a bit more 'fancy'?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was surprised to learn how consistently this practice is applied across the industry. There is certainly a great variance in abv among whiskies of the same age following maturation though. The point about Bruichladdich seems to be borne out as many of the recent SMWS Port Charlotte releases were about 65% at 8 or 9 years.

Some other SMWS bottlings are at a strength that belies the years, e.g. I had a Glen Moray 22yo at 61%. Could this (and the 70 year old Glenlivet at 45.9% that was mentioned and many other 40 and 50 year old whiskies) have been specifically casked at high strength in order to mature slowly?
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